Dads - Daycare, what that all about then? [Archive]

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 12:29 PM

Longshot

01-11-2006, 12:31 PM

Apparently this is an increasing problem - very limited numbers of spaces available.

Ask me again in about a year when I have to go through the same thing.

I'm seriously considering buying or setting up a nursery/creche for my wife to run as a way to solve the problem.

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 12:35 PM

I'm seriously considering buying or setting up a nursery/creche for my wife to run as a way to solve the problem.

You read my mind! There's a vacant shop on our estate, I could take on a few staff and save myself the cost of daycare.

Mike

01-11-2006, 12:43 PM

So my son's 14 months now, and we're looking for daycare for a couple of days a week starting next year.

I called the local early learning centre, they said we lived too far away (maybe half a mile). "but as distance is the deciding factor, surely we get a chance?". No says she and goes on about it for some time.
I said "okay, is there anyone nearer?" They said "No". "Hmm" says I. "You're the closest and say we're too far away, that means there is no daycare for us anywhere, right?", she continued to evade and started sounding a little harassed so I made my thanks and hung up.

So what's the deal? Does anyone use daycare? Are registered childminders the way forward?

Can't understand why they'd say you're too far away? Surely they're either full or they have spaces?

TP - we just visited all the private nurseries within reasonable driving distance and checked Ofsted reports where possible. There was a huge range in quality. In terms of pricing we pay c£35 a day (it's open 8 'til 6) but that figure might be what we pay now for our daughter 2 and a half or what we used to pay when she was a baby (it's more expensive then). That's for Rugby town centre.

An awful lot is down to the carers that look after them too. And be warned they will typically change as the child moves up into the older classes.

A few friends have kids in childminders. There's ups and downs. It's cheaper for one, but I think you have to get lucky to find a good one with enough other kids to counterbalance missing out on all the interaction in a nursery.

The government pays for something like 2 and a half days a week after the age of 3 - Pre School.

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 12:44 PM

Wait till you have to deal with the Care Commission, Social Work and parents!!

Its not all glamour :D

3puttwizard

01-11-2006, 12:54 PM

TP, I know people in London paying a grand a month for child care and we are not talking Kensington or Mayfair here either...

Start your own nursery, that will sort out your kid and will be a goldmine allowing you 3/4 days of golf a week :wink:

Scott W

01-11-2006, 12:57 PM

At one point I had 2 of them in nursery (Surrey) and was paying £800+ per month and that only 3 days per week, freaking nightmare.

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 01:09 PM

Longshot

01-11-2006, 01:13 PM

Stone the crows. And I thought £25/day was pricey. I'm downloading SureStart business packs now!

<Gets out stubbie and back-of-fag-packet>
20 kids, £35/day = 700/day
2 staff, £5/hr = 80/day

So with a small capital expenditure at Toys 'R Us for dummies and toys, there's only rent and other bills to pay out of 620 a day. Could be a winner.

Yep, that should do it.

I have a slight advantage in that my wife is a primary school teacher so we've got that going for us.

The idea that it could be a worthwhile enough concern for me to get involved and pack up my daily commute is a great one. Unlikely, but great :)

Mike

01-11-2006, 01:15 PM

<Gets out stubbie and back-of-fag-packet>
20 kids, £35/day = 700/day
2 staff, £5/hr = 80/day

Sorry TP - for little ones there's a required staff/child ratio of 1:3. Only above the age of say two does it go up to something like 1:5. I 'think' they have to be over three for it to be 1:8 which I 'think' is the highest the government allow.

Also, I 'think' you have to have qualified child carers and they'd be on say £16/£20k pa and probably more down south!

3puttwizard

01-11-2006, 01:16 PM

Exactly. I've been thinking of sending my wife on a course to get qualified.

Find a knackered in building somewhere and lease it.do it up...hire some other qualified carers from other schools....i.e poach with a small pay rise...

sit back watch the money come in and watch your handicap plummet

Game on..

Just ringing up the bank manager :laugh:

Longshot

01-11-2006, 01:17 PM

Find a knackered in building somewhere and lease it.

That's not nearly as easy as it sounds, believe me :)

Mike

01-11-2006, 01:17 PM

Sorry to sh*t on your ideas TP but I imagine a nursery's liability insurance is pretty high too :biggrin:

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 01:19 PM

Nurseries are great businesses. You can open 3 and retire!

But here's 3 things off the top of my head that put me off:

a) getting good staff is hard. Because of the ratio's, unless its a big nursery when a member of staff doesn't turn up, you will end up paying a fortune for agency. Unless you are of sufficient size that you have a good pool of staff.
b) people care more about their kids than parents- so will expect the best care and education for what is quite a lot of outlay.
c) the building is empty at night and so you don't make money on it, even though you are paying for it, and even worse you probably have to hire a security guard/service to make sure all your gear doesn't get nicked.

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 01:22 PM

Sorry TP - for little ones there's a required staff/child ratio of 1:3. Only above the age of say two does it go up to something like 1:5. I 'think' they have to be over three for it to be 1:8 which I 'think' is the highest the government allow.

Also, I 'think' you have to have qualified child carers and they'd be on say £16/£20k pa and probably more down south!

Case study: http://www.surestart.gov.uk/_doc/P0000420.pdf

There's two full time and two part time for twenty kids "under 5", admittedly this isn't clear but lets just say for arguements sake three full time staff.

"The government is to investigate thousands of children's nurseries to find out if staff are being paid at least the minimum wage (http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/2006/07/03/36141/Government+to+investigate+nurseries+to+ensure+chil dcare+staff+are+getting+correct.htm)"

So I think £5 an hour is generous! :D

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 01:24 PM

Sorry to sh*t on your ideas TP but I imagine a nursery's liability insurance is pretty high too :biggrin:

Any idea of a figure on that?

mhodgkinson

01-11-2006, 01:26 PM

Just going through the same thing myself. Little one will be 11mths old on Sunday and he's due to go into nursery early in Jan. Costs and absolute fortune and we were booking into the place some time in April to make sure that he had a place. Its costing more than my mortgage to send him for 4 days a week

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 01:37 PM

Case study: http://www.surestart.gov.uk/_doc/P0000420.pdf

There's two full time and two part time for twenty kids "under 5", admittedly this isn't clear but lets just say for arguements sake three full time staff.

"The government is to investigate thousands of children's nurseries to find out if staff are being paid at least the minimum wage (http://www.personneltoday.com/Articles/2006/07/03/36141/Government+to+investigate+nurseries+to+ensure+chil dcare+staff+are+getting+correct.htm)"

So I think £5 an hour is generous! :D

Minimum wage for over 21 and over is £5.35. I think its £4.65 for under 21's....but without breaking new laws on age discrimation (although the irony is that they get paid differently!????) i wouldn't be hiring under 21's. They are forever calling in 'sick'.

Add in your NI and PAYE contributions too...it takes it up quite a bit.

In my business staffing costs are 70% of the running costs!

Mike

01-11-2006, 01:37 PM

TP - I don't know if in that example the two owners were working as well? Or if the kids were typically older? I'm pretty sure the ratios are strict guidelines. Even if they weren't, they are very much the 'market norm' around here at least and I doubt a parent would put up with any higher ratios.

Havn't a clue about actual insurance costs for a care operator (Ian would be a good man I'd say) but know through personal experience they can be very high.

Good luck though matey :biggrin:

Longshot

01-11-2006, 01:39 PM

In my business staffing costs are 70% of the running costs!

I take it you don't lease the buildings then ?

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 01:47 PM

Our Care Commission fee's are over £9000 a year...its much less for nurseries but i don't know the figure. So factor that too :)

Insurance...its about £4k for us. But most quotes were around £7k. Not sure if the risk of injury etc and claims at nurseries is higher. But we're dealing with adults so i'm guess our residents are at much less of a risk than kids in a nursery.

Remember you'll have to pay a manager too who won't come cheap. Well not a good one.

Basically it will make wads of money if full....but if you run 20% down on kids...you could be losing money, as the fixed costs are ermmm fixed!

Add in a handyperson, cleaner and maybe even a cook?

As for ratios...we can negotiate what they are, so i guess nurseries can too....its dependent on risk and needs assessment. eg if you have 1 or 3 floors.......
But we run well within the ratios...because imo its foolhardy to risk it all (including you as the owner getting criminal proceedings) to run tight against the ratios. i know homes in glasgow with 1 nurse for all the times we have 2. but this way we always have back up (plus a supernumerary manager) and can cope with sickness etc. And we have a nurse doing supervising the medication at all times.

But if you go into it eyes wide open..........its a good business. Especially if one of you can afford to put time and effort in to ensure its running well.

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 01:48 PM

Well in my experience if a business idea doesn't stand up to loose scrutiny it's not a runner.

Figuring out the running costs is the problem. So now saying 4 staff at £6/hr (inc NI) for 8 hours is what (6x8x4) roughly £200 for staff.

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 01:50 PM

I take it you don't lease the buildings then ?

Care home is purpose built.

Any care home registered now would have to have ensuite (for some reason! who's grandparents even had a toilet indoors when they were growing up!!) so you would have to modify the building you are leasing which would make no sense without a very long lease.

Probably different for nurseries...as its only day care....but you'd want to secure a very long lease if that is the route you are going down. But then you miss out on capital gains through land/property appreciation.

Longshot

01-11-2006, 01:52 PM

Care home is purpose built.

Any care home registered now would have to have ensuite (for some reason! who's grandparents even had a toilet indoors when they were growing up!!) so you would have to modify the building you are leasing which would make no sense without a very long lease.

Probably different for nurseries...as its only day care....but you'd want to secure a very long lease if that is the route you are going down. But then you miss out on capital gains through land/property appreciation.

A lot more care homes are leased now. Not necessarily purpose built - many are conversions obviously.

I've valued a few recently.

Whilst you say that 70% of your costs are staffing, that doesn't take into account the purchase cost of the property. That was the point I was trying to make.

Tin Pot

01-11-2006, 01:56 PM

But if you go into it eyes wide open..........its a good business. Especially if one of you can afford to put time and effort in to ensure its running well.

Hmm. Didn't think about catering. One floor. Insurance uts be less for a small day care centre, but even at £4000 that a daily cost of ~£15

Might be easier to buy an existing daycare unit and shift it over our way.

With a rough figure of running costs, double it, and if you're still making a profit it should be a runner.

Mike

01-11-2006, 01:58 PM

There's an absolute boom in the care home investment market too. Everyone clearly thinks it's a growing business!

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 02:01 PM

A lot more care homes are leased now. Not necessarily purpose built - many are conversions obviously.

I've valued a few recently.

Whilst you say that 70% of your costs are staffing, that doesn't take into account the purchase cost of the property. That was the point I was trying to make.

Gotcha....we've been going 10years so the debt levels are pretty low and hence why our running costs are dominated by wages. But yeh on a new build with the debt to sevice, the wages would be closer to 50% of expenditure. But our fixed outlay would obviously be much higher and thus pressure on 'sales' increased.

BTW - we have a staggered staffing rota and a minimum staff rota...so bear in mind if you had one kid...you might still need to have 4 staff for example!! Great way to heamorrage money :D

Plan to build two more next year or the following...and i'd only considered purpose built, but that's just my view based on total ownership of property and land being desired.

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 02:02 PM

All in all though....its a fanstastic business area to get into!! I'd recommend it from people i know up here who are making very good money from doing it.

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 02:03 PM

There's an absolute boom in the care home investment market too. Everyone clearly thinks it's a growing business!

Well we are all getting older :laugh:

Mike

01-11-2006, 02:04 PM

So now saying 4 staff at £6/hr (inc NI) for 8 hours is what (6x8x4) roughly £200 for staff.

TP - for that rate they'll be thick, spotty teenagers!

Don't get me wrong I think it could be a great idea. Ian made a good point about size. The nursery we use has capacity for something like 90 kids. The couple that run it invested half a million. Plus she had some 12 years experience in child care.

Bear in mind though that you could make a small sideline in using the premises for evening events such as Weight Watchers/keep fit classes. Our nursery does language schools and arts/painting evenings.

Best of luck to you :wink:

Aquarius

01-11-2006, 02:07 PM

Have you thought about an Aupair (or however you spell it):biggrin:

Mike

01-11-2006, 02:10 PM

Have you thought about an Aupair (or however you spell it):biggrin:

I suggested that to my wife. She growled. I hadn't even mentioned a possible age (say 19/20) or a country of origin (say Sweden). This world can be so unfair at times :no:

Aquarius

01-11-2006, 02:21 PM

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Longshot

01-11-2006, 03:14 PM

Good thread this.

I'm going to open up a nusery for my kids to save money (and get a second income stream into the house) and then I'm going to open up an Old Fogeys Home for when I am one. Officially, rather than just acting like one.

I can make a fortune and save money at both ends. Wow !

:twitcy:

Mike

01-11-2006, 03:19 PM

Between you and me I've a worry that Ian has his charges standing in great long lines holding hands marking out fairways across his garden and the like. :biggrin:

MisterS3

01-11-2006, 03:45 PM

Between you and me I've a worry that Ian has his charges standing in great long lines holding hands marking out fairways across his garden and the like. :biggrin:

Dont be silly, i take a few out ball spotting for me!! :)

Newnick

01-11-2006, 04:15 PM

Having owned and run a reg care home (48 residents) from scratch, and with a wife who is a registered nursery worker, I can tell you that it is not easy money, particularly in areas of high real estate values. We sold our rest home for re-development as residential housing, paid the CGT, no more red tape, some cash in the bank.
The problem, even with purpose built property, is that the rules change so fast - en suite bathrooms, when many residents, patients with dementia, cannot remember what a wc is for, let alone a bath!
Nuff from me, I'm just glad I no longer have to cover for the night duty staff:)

Head Coverz

01-11-2006, 04:29 PM

All these problems! Allow me to thank my lucky stars that my mother looks after our 19 month old. It's nice to know that she's getting the best possible care from someone who loves her nearly as much as we do. Also, I don't know if I could trust anyone else to do it! Plus I don't have to pay her nearly as much as some of the places that have been refered to on this thread.:)

Mike

01-11-2006, 04:33 PM

Ours is with her grandmother two days and in nursery two days (with mum the other). There's good and bad points with each!

McStumpy

01-11-2006, 08:55 PM

c) the building is empty at night and so you don't make money on it, even though you are paying for it, and even worse you probably have to hire a security guard/service to make sure all your gear doesn't get nicked.

Easy solution... at night, run a brothel from the premises.

Should be able to retire at 40, I would imagine?