Distance advice

[Forbesie]

I know that this is not really relevant now due to the new rules coming out, but I was hoping you could answer this question for me.

The previous rules said that you could not give advice that could influence a player in determining his play,the choice of club or the method of making a stroke.

The new rules say in addition, that information on the rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.(Is this suggesting it was in the past or just clarifying?)

I always thought that matters of fact eg telling someone it is 150 yards to the green was allowed (but not it is a 7 iron to the green). Have I been wong in thinking this. If this is so I should probably have been penalised quite a lot in the past as I often "helped" players who have never played the course before, and would this extend to telling them about bunkers etc that are in play from blind shots.

My playing partners and I have been discussing this

[Tin Pot]

I always thought that matters of fact eg telling someone it is 150 yards to the green was allowed (but not it is a 7 iron to the green). Have I been wong in thinking this. If this is so I should probably have been penalised quite a lot in the past as I often "helped" players who have never played the course before, and would this extend to telling them about bunkers etc that are in play from blind shots.

My playing partners and I have been discussing this

The rule has always been that advising other players is not allowed. Casual comments like "it's a bit windy today" is okay, but telling them yardages is out.

Competition only of course.

[Tin Pot]

Crikey!

I STAND CORRECTED:

Information regarding the distance between two objects is public information and not advice. It is therefore permissible for players to exchange information relating to the distance between two objects. For example, a player may ask anyone, including his opponent, fellow-competitor or either of their caddies, the distance between his ball and the hole.

However, be careful if one of you has GPS:

Except when the Local Rule allowing the use of distance-measuring devices has been adopted (see Note to Rule 14-3), information regarding distance must not have been obtained from an artificial device used during the stipulated round. A player who obtains distance information that he knew was measured by anyone with an artificial device during the player’s round is disqualified under Rule 14-3. (Revised)

[Forbesie]

That is my understanding of how it used to be but I am wondering if the rules have just been clarified in the new book or if they have changed, and i mis-understood them before.

Do you know if the decisions have been updated to go with the new rule book?

[The Lyth]

Its was OK to ADVISE someone but you couldn't give them ADVICE.

The definition of Advice has not changed a great deal in over 85 years.


1921
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining the line of play, in the choice of a club or in the method of making a stroke.


1984
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or a method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules or on matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

2008
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or a method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

[Forbesie]

Thanks for that. I can now return to that discussion armed with that information. I hate having a doubt about a rule as my mates see me as something of a rules guru (ha!) as i know most of the basics - but not the in depth ones.

The other one we were discussing was practice on the course. I said that unless a local rule was in place, that as long as play is not delayed you can have a practice putt or practice your chipping in the vicinity of the green just played or close to the next tee. Hope I have that one right.

[The Lyth]

The other one we were discussing was practice on the course. I said that unless a local rule was in place, that as long as play is not delayed you can have a practice putt or practice your chipping in the vicinity of the green just played or close to the next tee. Hope I have that one right.

Between holes its OK, but only putting and chipping. Wait for someone to ask "Can't I pitch then?"

[Forbesie]

cheers for that

[Foxholer]

Its was OK to ADVISE someone but you couldn't give them ADVICE.

The definition of Advice has not changed a great deal in over 85 years.


1921
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining the line of play, in the choice of a club or in the method of making a stroke.


1984
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or a method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules or on matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

2008
Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or a method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice.

Lyth,

That would be fine - except that the capitalised ADVISE should be INFORM - which is not advice.

The current rules merely clarify existing protocols.

Ross

[The Lyth]

Lyth,

That would be fine - except that the capitalised ADVISE should be INFORM - which is not advice.

The current rules merely clarify existing protocols.

Ross

If you change ADVISE to INFORM the sentence loses impact. The whole idea is to make people aware that what you say can be correct or incorrect.

It is OK to ADVISE your opponent that there is a Bunker over the brow of the hill, but you can't tell them to hit an Iron so they don't reach it. Thats ADVICE.

[JDH]

My understanding (after assisting refereeing in a national junior competition, and asking for clarification on this issue) is that you can state (or ask for) factual, public information. That has 2 important ramifications:

You can state, or ask for, the distance from a fixed landmark to a fixed landmark; ie 'it is 155 yards from the back of that bunker to the centre of the green' but you can NOT give/ask for information on variables or those which might be considered to require 'judgement'; ie you can't say 'you've got 157 yards from your spot in the fairway to the flag'.
You can't offer information on club selection or strategy; ie as stated previously, it's ok to say 'there's a bunker over that hill' but not 'there's a bunker over that hill: i'd take a 3 iron if I were you'


There's often a fine line; for example, asking 'do many players go for this in 2?' isn't, strictly, asking for advice but could be interpreted as asking for informtion which will help determine club choice and strategy. The general rule (which was the one doled out to parents, players and referees in the competition I was involved in) was 'if in doubt, don't ask or answer'.

Actually, the only incident we had was dads attempting to advise their sons from the sidelines ie 'nice easy 3 wood down the left Jonny, take the bunker out of play'. In the first instance our action was always to tell the dad to button it (politely of course), but we did have to penalise one lad whose father just wouldn't let up. I felt really sorry for the player, FWIW.

[ANDYTROW]

My understanding (after assisting refereeing in a national junior competition, and asking for clarification on this issue) is that you can state (or ask for) factual, public information. That has 2 important ramifications:

You can state, or ask for, the distance from a fixed landmark to a fixed landmark; ie 'it is 155 yards from the back of that bunker to the centre of the green' but you can NOT give/ask for information on variables or those which might be considered to require 'judgement'; ie you can't say 'you've got 157 yards from your spot in the fairway to the flag'.
You can't offer information on club selection or strategy; ie as stated previously, it's ok to say 'there's a bunker over that hill' but not 'there's a bunker over that hill: i'd take a 3 iron if I were you'


There's often a fine line; for example, asking 'do many players go for this in 2?' isn't, strictly, asking for advice but could be interpreted as asking for informtion which will help determine club choice and strategy. The general rule (which was the one doled out to parents, players and referees in the competition I was involved in) was 'if in doubt, don't ask or answer'.

Actually, the only incident we had was dads attempting to advise their sons from the sidelines ie 'nice easy 3 wood down the left Jonny, take the bunker out of play'. In the first instance our action was always to tell the dad to button it (politely of course), but we did have to penalise one lad whose father just wouldn't let up. I felt really sorry for the player, FWIW.

What if the adivce is given by someone in your group wth out being asked for

eg Your 150 out there, Id take a 6 iron if I was you

[Tin Pot]

What if the adivce is given by someone in your group wth out being asked for

eg Your 150 out there, Id take a 6 iron if I was you

It's all quite illuminating. I always took the line of not giving any kind of information at all, just to avoid the whole issue, but the Decisions (http://randapublic.loghar.com/flash/decisions/decisions.html) book is quite interesting:


In stroke play, if A asks for advice from B, a fellowcompetitor, A incurs a penalty of two strokes. If B gives advice, he also incurs a penalty of two strokes.

Advice on how to play or information on the rules? Be careful how you say it! Breach 8-1/16:

B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: “You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would declare the ball unplayable.”

[Tin Pot]

What if the adivce is given by someone in your group wth out being asked for

eg Your 150 out there, Id take a 6 iron if I was you

So as above, the player giving the advice gets a two stroke penalty or loses the hole.

[The Lyth]

Another interesting point that I am not sure could be OK or not.

"The Markers with 150 on them are 150yds from the front of each green, but don't take any notice of the right hand one on 17 because its in the wrong place."

Is this statement OK or not?

I played in a Scratch League and gave information to my opponents each time I played at home. Also when I played away I was given information by my opponents. These matches were played in very friendly conditions so no one even thought about calling foul when wrong wording was used.
Statements like:-
Watch this green, it's not been watered as much as the rest.
This hole always plays longer than it looks.
This green is always the quickest on the course.

[Tin Pot]

Another interesting point that I am not sure could be OK or not.

"The Markers with 150 on them are 150yds from the front of each green, but don't take any notice of the right hand one on 17 because its in the wrong place."

Is this statement OK or not?


That one is specifically covered by decisions 8-1/3

It seems that anything specifically about distance is not a problem.

[The Lyth]

Some years ago I was the Manager of the Junior Section of a golf club.
The kids came up with a code for when they played 4-ball team matches.

"Did you hit that right?"
"No, but it was enough"

actually meant,

"8 iron?"
"No, 9 iron"

Not technically advice but they could use it at other times that was actually against the rules. I never condoned it though.

[JDH]

That one is specifically covered by decisions 8-1/3

It seems that anything specifically about distance is not a problem.

Distance is only ok if we're talking about two fixed objects, ie a tree and the centre of a green. The ball isn't a fixed object, so asking for distance on a shot (ie 'how far is it to the pin?') isn't ok. You can only ask with reference to landmarks and then work the rest out yourself.

Of course, if they're now going to allow laser rangefinders that seems a little silly, but never mind.

[Tin Pot]

The ball isn't a fixed object, so asking for distance on a shot (ie 'how far is it to the pin?') isn't ok. You can only ask with reference to landmarks and then work the rest out yourself.


For example, a player may ask anyone, including his opponent, fellow-competitor or either of their caddies, the distance between his ball and the hole.

Golf rules is all about splitting hairs, so I make no apologies!

[JDH]

Decisions 8-1/2
For example, a player may ask anyone, including his opponent, fellow-competitor or either of their caddies, the distance between his ball and the hole.

That's an interesting one; I didn't think that was the case.
You learn something very day.

[Tin Pot]

Yeah, I hadn't read that section in the Decisions before and quite a few of them surprised me.

[The Lyth]

It seems to me that the R&A have been very fair with the introduction of GPS and Rangefinders.
Allowing information obtained from such a device to be passed between players seems only fair.

...................As long as it doesn't delay play.

[Tin Pot]

I had this come up in the last competition round, one of our three ball thought it might be okay for a female golfer to ask what club a male golfer is going to use on a hole because of the differences between the sexes...

I quoted the above - to ask what club would be asking for advice, but asking how far it is to the hole is fine.

I have no idea really, but surely the rules are the same for both sexes?!