View Full Version : How vital is it to be square at address?
Paul Howard
05-11-2006, 04:57 PM
Im curious cos my yank friends are not giving me much to go. They call it a basic or a fundamental so I ask you. How vital is it that we get the clubface square to the flag or intended target at address and that we get square to that with our body alignment and feet, shoulders etc?
Im curious to hear your views and well possibly to get into an argumnet with some golfers about it?
Gogs Guy
05-11-2006, 05:37 PM
When you're an average player and trying to hit a straight shot it's essential. When you're a very good player and can shape the ball isn't not as necessary
Threeputter
05-11-2006, 06:05 PM
Sorry Paul did I read it correctly that you are a teaching professional in your profile ? Just asking.
Tin Pot
05-11-2006, 09:11 PM
Paul,
You need to pop into Introductions before posting a thread, it's rule 1.
To answer your question; important, but the feet should be aligned to the target, not the clubface.
Zorro
05-11-2006, 09:48 PM
To answer your question; important, but the feet should be aligned to the target, not the clubface.
TinPot, I don't think you are right on this one. :confusedw:
It is normal that your feet are inline with where you want the ball to start, and the club face where you want the ball to finish. You swing down the line of your feet but where the club face is pointing at contact is where the ball will finish.
Paul Howard
06-11-2006, 08:23 AM
Zorro, Is about the closest I have heard with his clubface when it is hitting the ball.
Yes sorry, I am teaching. I have a book out in the new year. Called The Real Fundamentals of Golf - No More Speculation.
Longshot
06-11-2006, 08:29 AM
Zorro, Is about the closest I have heard with his clubface when it is hitting the ball.
Yes sorry, I am teaching. I have a book out in the new year. Called The Real Fundamentals of Golf - No More Speculation.
We could all review it for you if you like ? Got a spare 200 copies ?
Tin Pot
06-11-2006, 08:31 AM
TinPot, I don't think you are right on this one. :confusedw:
It is normal that your feet are inline with where you want the ball to start, and the club face where you want the ball to finish. You swing down the line of your feet but where the club face is pointing at contact is where the ball will finish.
I could have made myself confused here. My last lesson had the Pro bring my left foot in one inch. I had been lining up my feet to the club face previously, but this left my stance open. I thought that the change aligned my feet to the target...but I could be wrong.
Tin Pot
06-11-2006, 08:32 AM
Paul,
You need to pop into Introductions before posting a thread, it's rule 1.
No need to upset the mods, by ignoring the rule...
Zorro
06-11-2006, 10:26 AM
get into an argumnet with some golfers about it?
So what's your thoughts? I'm ready to argue!! :smile:
My opinion is that it is not necessary for the body to be square with the club face. It does help though but unless you are coming down the correct path (not out to in for example) it will not make any difference.
For the better golfers (I have to exclude myself from this debate - but if you would like a Guinea Pig to work with you to prove that your theories are correct then you have a volunteer here :smile: ), Laura Davies for example (hearsay) to draw the ball aims her feet towards the right hand side of the fairway but has the club face pointing straight down the middle. Swinging down the line of her feet will create a small amount of side spin causing the ball to draw.
Is her club face square with her body and feet, no.
Someone I play with regularly, is not the longest of hitters (220 drive) but always hits the ball straight asked me how to draw the ball of the tee (necessary for the hole we were playing as it turned quickly off the tee). For him it was very easy, he always swings on the correct line and has his club face square at contact. By just regripping with the face turned in ever so slightly he hit a perfect draw around the corner. Should have charged him £25 but settled for a beer!!
Lowho
06-11-2006, 11:10 AM
TinPot, I don't think you are right on this one. :confusedw:
It is normal that your feet are inline with where you want the ball to start, and the club face where you want the ball to finish. You swing down the line of your feet but where the club face is pointing at contact is where the ball will finish.
You need to take the shoulders and the hips into consideration with alignment :yes:
Idealy everyone wants to hit a straight shot, in a perfect world to hit a dead straight shot your aim needs to be at the target. everything. With majority Joe golfers stance is the first thing to go. Look at tour players on the range, a lot of them put a club down along their feet. Even if they have a natural shot shape they will still aim at the target unless they are trying to considerably move the ball in the air. I think that unless you are a highly skilled golfer, Aim for the middle of the green. If you hit it left, your left side and vice versa. I see too many of my pupils in playing lessons taking dead aim at the pin and getting themselves into trouble. If i was teaching a begginer i would tell them to aim everything at their target :yes: Because if your fundamentals are correct, the cause of the problems is narrowed down to within the backswing or down swing. There is no right or wrong here but i would say personally if you are not taking lessons, setting up to allow your shot shape is advisable in a small degree.
Example:
If my bad shot 8/10 right off the tee, i dshould aim to the left side of the fairway. If it is just your feet that aim left then you will slice it further. If you aim everything left you will hit it to the left side of the fairway unless you slice it and you will be right centre but with the ball in play.
As i said there is no right or wrong here i am going on what i have learnt from the PGA :yes:
Also p.s. Paul Howard , welcome to moon golfer, please post in the introductions thread as it is one of our rules. We wouldnt want to get off on the wrong foot. Again welcome and we hope you enjoy this place :yes:
Tin Pot
06-11-2006, 11:28 AM
You need to take the shoulders and the hips into consideration with alignment :yes:
Ideally everyone wants to hit a straight shot, in a perfect world to hit a dead straight shot your aim needs to be at the target. everything.
This is my current mindset, and seems to be working. To illustrate what I mean, if you took two clubs and aligned one with my feet, and one with the club face, they would not be quite parallel. Both would point at the target.
The closer the target, the "less parallel" they would be. I'm going to double check with my Pro tomorrow night to make sure I've understood his advice to me properly.
golf_bhoy
06-11-2006, 12:11 PM
"Not parallel" = one of these -
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Maybe you misunderstood your pro, or he was describing a fix peculiar to your swing?
The majority of teaching emphasises "parallel" alignment, usually with a "train track" analogy. That means only the clubface is pointing directly at the target, everything else is aimed to the left of it (for a right handed golfer).
If you've ever played with Garry Morrison then you'll understand all about being parallel, his feet and shoulders point about 45 degrees to the right his club points 45 degrees to the left and he plays with a massive slice, God only knows how. And he whipped my ass yesterday 11 skins to him 7 to MisterS3 and SFA to me and it was off scratch!!
MisterS3
06-11-2006, 01:41 PM
If you've ever played with Garry Morrison then you'll understand all about being parallel, his feet and shoulders point about 45 degrees to the right his club points 45 degrees to the left and he plays with a massive slice, God only knows how. And he whipped my ass yesterday 11 skins to him 7 to MisterS3 and SFA to me and it was off scratch!!
I was just about to post something similar!!
In fairness to Kev it was on our 'easier' course so his 5 strokes on gary and 11 on me didn't come into play, plus Kev halved all the holes with Gary and i just picked up a few with my 5 good shots per round (non putts!).
It was funny to see Gary send the ball around a tree 15 feet to the left off us and only about 30 yards in front and still almost find the fairway!!
But for me...its train tracks.
Although with new grip i'm still have to adjust to avoid pulls...after playing a year with a poor left hand grip.
PS - Kev, a shopaholics post is due from you me thinks! :D
They funny thing is he plays his 7 wood with a hook, the face points at his left foot.
Me a shopaholic? Compared to you I'm just a dabbler. From what I've picked up from you this weekend you've got a set of every club Mizuno have ever made, some still in the box!
Orthodox Alignment should be train tracks, with shoulders, hips and feet in parallel to the swing line, (II). (Lowho, isn't this what is taught through the PGA and EGTA??).
If everything points to the target including clubface, the result will be either a push or a draw.
i.e. feet hips and shoulders to target, and clubface on same line, clubface aims to right of target (push).(//)
feet hips and shoulders to target, and clubface to target results in closed setup, swing along target line = draw / hook (/I)
Grip, stance and posture.....always!
However - not everyone is orthodox!
Lowho
06-11-2006, 03:29 PM
Orthodox Alignment should be train tracks, with shoulders, hips and feet in parallel to the swing line, (II). (Lowho, isn't this what is taught through the PGA and EGTA??).
If everything points to the target including clubface, the result will be either a push or a draw.
i.e. feet hips and shoulders to target, and clubface on same line, clubface aims to right of target (push).(//)
feet hips and shoulders to target, and clubface to target results in closed setup, swing along target line = draw / hook (/I)
Grip, stance and posture.....always!
However - not everyone is orthodox!
Correct :yes: my bad wording, its been a long weekend :D
Tin Pot
06-11-2006, 03:37 PM
If everything points to the target including clubface, the result will be either a push or a draw.
Hmm. Do you think it's a coincidence that my good shots are either a push or a draw..?(!)
lol, back to the drawing board.
Tin Pot
06-11-2006, 03:38 PM
...double post
Paul Howard - Spam? Cool.
Maybe this could be our first 'Tina' thread?!?
golf_bhoy
06-11-2006, 03:48 PM
Hmm. Do you think it's a coincidence that my good shots are either a push or a draw..?(!)
lol, back to the drawing board.
And back to the pro, even if it's just to make sure he knows you might have misunderstood him. I'm sure he'd appreciate the feedback since it'll help him to improve his communication skills, a big part of teaching.
Cliche Guevara
08-11-2006, 04:20 PM
Im currently reading the book "The LAWs of the Golf Swing" Adams, Tomasi & Suttie, which is about having a swing to suit your body shape and flexibility.
The name LAWs is taken from the 3 types of player based on their body type L = Leverage (people of medium build and average flexibility)
A= Arc (Tall thin chested, long arms and maximum flexibility )
W =Width (Thick torso, shorter arms, minimum flexibility)
I fall under the W category and they state I should have a slightly closed stance, bending from the hips to allow the arms to hang down so they can swing over your chest and not around, thus avoiding the in to out on your down swing.
Like I say reading this at the moment, trying to make sense of what they say (which is basically one swing doesnt fit all).But Ill report back if I feel the theory has merit and I decide to try anything out.
Id be interested if anyone else has read or heard of this and what they think of it.
Creosote
08-11-2006, 06:14 PM
I don't think it matters what your alignment is, or squareness or otherwise as long as you can hit the same shot consistently. Of course good alignment and squareness should make it easier to hit shots well, but consistency is more important than actual technique.
St Andrews
08-11-2006, 09:35 PM
In order to get me to turn instead of tilting when using the driver, my pro got me to draw my right foof back from the target line so that my stance was closed. Clearly I am no longer lined up to the target. It has stopped me from coming over the top on an out to in line and I now turn away from the ball properly on the takeaway.I don't know if this is of any consequence to your question, but it works well for me and I still hit it down the middle (sometimes). Cheers!
MacBludgeon
09-11-2006, 12:09 AM
I don't think it matters what your alignment is, or squareness or otherwise as long as you can hit the same shot consistently. Of course good alignment and squareness should make it easier to hit shots well, but consistency is more important than actual technique.
Ah the agony, I'm agreeing with Creo again:p
If what you do repeats and gets the clubhead back to the ball squarely then it will work. I would go so far as to say it is good to experiment with all sorts of stances and ball positions. The more you know about how these things impact your shots the more versatile you can be in your game. Our resident Scottish contingent should be able to say how important the ability to hit a knock down shot is.
Personally I like to stand slightly open, so clubface to target, lead foot slightly back and lead shoulder back as well. I'll generally hit a fade and just feel that the open stance gives me more room to get through the shot. Or possibly just allows me to swing around my stomach better:laugh:
rgjusa
09-11-2006, 08:23 AM
Funnily enough I was thinking recently about how technically "obsessed" the golf world has become to the detriment of actually advancing the ball forward into the hole. So, to answer your question "is it vital" - I don't think so anymore. More vital to concentrate in getting a repeating shot and if that means you are standing open/closed/on your head, who cares? A lot of the pros (and I have nothing in common with them apart from a love of money, sorry, golf) all stand "incorrectly". For sure there are some basics that if not adhered to may give you problems, but as everyone knows consistency of shot is the key and however I achieve that I couldn't care less about. Find something that works for you and get on with it and stop obsessing is todays swing thought!
Or...on a Monday I say "yes", on a Tuesday I say "no"...daft game...back to archery practice for me...
Tin Pot
09-11-2006, 08:29 AM
And back to the pro, even if it's just to make sure he knows you might have misunderstood him. I'm sure he'd appreciate the feedback since it'll help him to improve his communication skills, a big part of teaching.
Spoke to a different Pro, and actually it turned out I had a different problem, I was standing too crouched and therefore the toe of the club was not flush with the ground. I'm back to hitting them long and straight, so I'm loathe to make any other changes yet.
I'll bring it up again next week, by which time I'm sure I'll have gained another problem anyway!
Tin Pot
09-11-2006, 08:32 AM
...but consistency is more important than actual technique.
Consistency is the golfing grail! I've been capable of good shots for most of the year, but working them up from 1 out of 10 shots has been a painful process and continues to be so.
Fieldsy
26-02-2007, 12:03 PM
Consistency is the golfing grail! I've been capable of good shots for most of the year, but working them up from 1 out of 10 shots has been a painful process and continues to be so.
You can hit 1 out of 10 good shots ????? You lucky sod.....if I get one in a round (and a round for me is more than 100) I'm happy :confusedw:
Seriously as a beginner to the game, that has to be the most infuriating part doesn't it? We know we can play well by getting pars at all but the most difficult holes on our course; unfortunately it only ever seems to be between two and six on any given day for me at the moment.
On the issue of being square at address, I do think its very important, and its something Ive always checked. Until recently I've had the beginners usual fault of extreme fades (some people have described my poor shots as a slice ;) )but this seems to have changed since I obtained a Swingsetter. I've now got a much stronger grip and a better swingpath. However I'm finding the shots that I connect best with are hooking somewhat and flying much, much longer than before (for the first time ever on Saturday I found myself within range of the green on my 2nd shot at our 13th - took a 9Iron out and hit the damn thing 45 yards long and 20 yards left of the green). Whats that all about? Ball position? Or could it be something McBludgeon touched on earlier.....am I swinging round my belly and causing the hook that way ?
Chris
eelabob
26-02-2007, 01:24 PM
I continue to hear the feet hips and shoulders square to target line advise, but I have an issue with this, if you clasp your hands together your shoulders are square but as you push your right hand down to grasp grip below left hand "righthanders" your right shoulder dips below the left , if you now place a club across your chest, shoulder to shouler you will see that your shoulders are considerably open. question is how do you correct for this while still keeping feet and hips square?
I continue to hear the feet hips and shoulders square to target line advise, but I have an issue with this, if you clasp your hands together your shoulders are square but as you push your right hand down to grasp grip below left hand "righthanders" your right shoulder dips below the left , if you now place a club across your chest, shoulder to shouler you will see that your shoulders are considerably open. question is how do you correct for this while still keeping feet and hips square?
I was shown this in a lesson recentlyish. Rather than whacking your right hand onto the grip from the side, try and sort of take your grip from "underneath". It's near on impossible to explain in words :twitcy:
Paul Howard
26-02-2007, 03:53 PM
Chris and of course anyone else willing to hear my opinion,
Ive been down the road of teaching sqaure at address, I thought it was essential for 10 years of coaching... Now Ive seen a different path and I can confirm without doubt Alignment is a non-essential ingredient to good golf. Ive coached golf without uttering a word about alignment or clubface aim to beginners and ive seen golf that was considered impossible by ctitics, without good alignment and aim.
I hope this is the start of the revolution.
Chris and of course anyone else willing to hear my opinion,
Ive been down the road of teaching sqaure at address, I thought it was essential for 10 years of coaching... Now Ive seen a different path and I can confirm without doubt Alignment is a non-essential ingredient to good golf. Ive coached golf without uttering a word about alignment or clubface aim to beginners and ive seen golf that was considered impossible by ctitics, without good alignment and aim.
I hope this is the start of the revolution.
Next up you'll be telling us that clubs and balls merely get in the way of good golf :wink:
I can appreciate your stand that people get too hung up over mechanics and equipment etc etc but the key is that it gives people a better chance of returning the clubface square.
If I have a better chance of returning the clubface to the ball correctly then I am going to hit better shots and therefore enjoy my golf more. I expect I could stand with my legs crossed and my eyes shut and once in a while manage to connect - therefore it is not essential that I am set up square to hit a good shot. However, I'm a damn site more likely to hit a bad shot if I don't.
Paul Howard
26-02-2007, 05:42 PM
Sorry I have to ask... Does it give you a better chance of returning the clubface square?
Have you ever experimented? I have... and with pupils as well as myself.
I feel we go round the actual thing we are actually after. We wish to learn how to return the clubface square at impact. So we work on everything but that in an effort or hope that by sorting everything else out, the clubface will sort itself out.
Just my opinion, you may have found something out that ive overlooked.
Yep. Tried all sorts messing about on the range :)
Paul Howard
26-02-2007, 07:15 PM
Great... Youve experimented with standing open and closed as well square and seen what can happen... I applaud you.
Snake Eyes
26-02-2007, 07:34 PM
Since the start of my golfingI can't remember the number of books I've read on the subject. Anyhow they all say square. 1/ Club Face, 2/ Shoulders ,hips and feet. If you want a draw to the ball, 1/ Club face square to target, 2/ Shoulders ,hips and feet slightly to the right. Fade, 1/ Club face square to target, Shoulders ,hips and feet slightly to the left. The problem arises when you are a novice as your swing plain is probably not consistent enough therefore it would produce mixed results. If I'm wrong in this assumption HELP! :smile:
Paul Howard
27-02-2007, 09:55 AM
Yes, all the books do say that, then we have Darren Clarke who hits a draw with an open face at addres... Yes I did say open face at address produces a draw. Monty hits a fade... what is his clubface at address? Closed.
Books also suugest we stand a little open, for pitching and chipping yet some of the best pitchers on tour address the ball closed for these shots.
Books talk about a neutral grip, yet Hogan weakened his grip. Address the ball square to the target yet Trevino and Norman were mis-aligned. (according to tradition, not me)
3 of the greatest ball strikers not comforming to those books. Geniuses always tend to break rules of normaility.
Do you think though that they do well inspite of their differences becsaue they are very talented? Just becasue someone does well at something by not following the rules doesn't mean that a 'normal' person would not benefit by following them.
Longshot
27-02-2007, 10:19 AM
OK, try this. Take what I would call a pitching stance - feet close-ish, lined up way open, ball on back foot, 1/2 to 3/4 swing.
Now try and hit a 4i 170 yards like that. I do that a lot - it's the straightest shot I can hit (with any iron). I use it for bump and runs under the wind, out of trees or if I need a very accurate approach shot where there's no water or bunkers in the way.
The alignment is way, way off being aimed at the hole yet it is the most consistently straight way of hitting shots I know. If I need to make a "clutch" shot, I'll do that rather than my conventional swing.
it's not impact but separation that's key...
yet it is the most consistently straight way of hitting shots I know.
For you. That I think is the key to all of this, we are all different but the best chance of someone getting the club to the ball in the correct fashion is to follow the 'rules'.
Longshot
27-02-2007, 10:48 AM
For you. That I think is the key to all of this, we are all different but the best chance of someone getting the club to the ball in the correct fashion is to follow the 'rules'.
Yes of course for me. That's why I kept saying it's what I find.
I play full shots basically parallel, as per the text books. But, if you read text books like Swing Like a Pro - that tells you that the Pros actually stand slightly open, not railtrack style. SLAP has computer modelled all of the Pro's swings so should have some idea.
A pro I used to have lessons with got me standing slightly open to try to help me turn a bit better through the ball. Tried it and tried it but couldn't hit a thing so went back to square-ish.
I think you've hit the nail on the head - it's all about what works for you. I've come to the conclusion that I'm not going to offer any swing tips and I'm not going to ask for any or pay any attention to any that are given to me by anyone except the pro I'm having lessons with who knows my swing :yes:
Yes of course for me. That's why I kept saying it's what I find.
I wasn't having a go, just joining in the discussion ;)
http://www.authenticleather.com/Images/pal-handbag.jpg
Longshot
27-02-2007, 11:28 AM
I wasn't having a go, just joining in the discussion ;)
http://www.authenticleather.com/Images/pal-handbag.jpg
Sorry, no offence was taken - I was just stressing that I wasn't suggesting anyone else should do that.
I was just trying to highlight that non-square can work consistently.
:) I'm glad, I'm not a fighter :)
Snake Eyes
27-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Yes, all the books do say that, then we have Darren Clarke who hits a draw with an open face at addres... Yes I did say open face at address produces a draw. Monty hits a fade... what is his clubface at address? Closed.
Books also suugest we stand a little open, for pitching and chipping yet some of the best pitchers on tour address the ball closed for these shots.
Books talk about a neutral grip, yet Hogan weakened his grip. Address the ball square to the target yet Trevino and Norman were mis-aligned. (according to tradition, not me)
3 of the greatest ball strikers not comforming to those books. Geniuses always tend to break rules of normaility.
Yes, But in all things, learn the right way and then adapt it to you. Starting right then bend the rules to suit what suits you and gives you the best result.